Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Discuss various LEGO themes like Friends, City, Star Wars, Batman and more here.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by vynsane » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:43 am

natelite wrote:doesn't matter how they sprinkle the themes. when families go to the store to buy, you can be sure there are LSW sets to choose from at any point during the year. families don't go to store as soon as a theme is out, so the point about when the sets are released is moot.
The entire 'retail thing' is based on seasons - you're basically forced to go at certain times of the year to buy certain items. If you go into the store (to buy patio chairs or whatever) in a season when the new LSW items come out, and you or your kids are a LEGO fan, you might buy a LSW item when you go to that store. The next season, when there are no new LSW items, you're probably more likely to buy a different LEGO themed item - regardless of what's on the shelves - since you would have already bought the LSW items you were interested in. This isn't necessarily the case with TRU and other specialty stores, but it's definitely true for the big boxes.

It wasn't always this way - I remember when I was a kid not having to worry about release dates and case assortments - G.I. Joes were almost perpetually available. Maybe there were a few new items released at a certain time, with older products phasing out of the assortment, but for the most part older figures were still mixed into the assortments. Not so anymore - a case assortment generally doesn't contain anything but brand-new products, thereby 'forcing' you to buy all of them at once, feeding that 'collector mentality'. We have the big boxes to thank for this, as LEGO had to pattern their release schedule based on that seasonal drive.
by increasing the price of the LSW sets, TLC is effectively feeding the bubble frenzy. i.e. if consumers expect price in the future to increase, they will consume now or buy now for resale later. at some point, fatigue is going to set in....at which point the bubble pop creating excess supply (both from TLC and from the resellers) and virtually no demand because demand (i.e. end consumer) is bankrupted by the frenzy bubble. the marginal consumer will require massive price cut in order to have any incentive to consume further.
I don't know if the bubble is being fed by LEGO so much as the bubble is forcing LEGO's hand, in regards to the 'collector mentality' issue I describe above. It's also quite possible that LEGO is trying to artificially decrease demand for their SW line through increased prices in order to make people migrate to other, either lower-cost licenses or non-licensed original themes. It could also be a business move in order to renegotiate the contract in 2011, as was the initial topic this was split from.

I'm not sure if reselling is as huge an influence on LEGO as you think. There's really no incentive for them to care one way or the other, aside from the fact that it's profit made on their product that they're not seeing. It goes against their business sense to feed into the bubble the way you describe, which makes me believe they are trying to drive consumers to their other products.
i think TLC should really cut down on the number of LSW sets per year from like 11-15+ to only 6 or fewer. keep introducing magnet sets to drive out resellers, at least for LSW minifigures. when you have consumers who buy sets to consume (instead of resell or scalp) you have less problem with a bubble forming. selling magnet sets drive out most scalpers since the most valuable components of a LSW set are the minifigs. fewer sets = fewer set collectors = more money to spend on other themes. more magnet sets and fewer sets = more sales based on merit of the set and lower resale value for the sets vs original msrp.
This all makes a lot of sense, though I'd say cap it to 10 sets a year (two waves of 5 sets, a summer and winter push) which seems in line with the way they do their new-theme pushes (10 SP3 sets throghout 2009, 6 main sets +2 promo sets for the initial push of World Racers in 2010).
legitimatealex wrote:I bought the Wizard and Jester set because I wanted the Wizard and the Jester. I got the two Atlantis Impulse sets because I wanted another diving suit and a manta guy. I got the Traveler because I wanted his camera. I got the policeman impulse set because I wanted the dog. I also wanted that street cleaner but I couldn't find it anywhere anymore. I wanted him because he had a nice accessory.

This one might be hard to argue but from my shopping perspective the impulse sets are fluff with little bits of accessories that usually don't end up elsewhere in some sets.
I'm not trying to argue your reason for buying an impulse set, but I'd wager I'm right from LEGO's standpoint in terms of why they put out a 'set' that basically amounts to a minifigure + some free bricks. They probably make little to no money on impulse sets, with the hope that you'll buy more from the series. Also, take into account the core demographic (kids) who get one small thing (say, Atlantis Sea Jet), think it's the coolest thing ever, then bug their parents to get the other ones to go with it (Typhoon Turbo Sub, Seabed Scavenger, Neptune Carrier, etc...)
slacker wrote:One thing I want to ask is how many new pieces are made every year? Molds are pretty inexpensive. The recovery for R&D is usually paid off after the first run of the product. Designers don't work on just one product a year. if they did, they would be out of business. Now this is based on how we function at work. I'm sure Lego is more efficient than we are.
I think they're reusing molds and thinking about reuse of pieces a lot more these days. In the heyday of LSW, when it single-handedly brought them back from the brink of bankruptcy, they invested a lot of money into new pieces which amounted to near one-offs (pieces only made for specific sets, etc) which was a bit gluttonous. Since then, the economy has forced LEGO to be more cognizant of cost versus profit. Where slight redesigns of sets only a couple years old (Slave I, AT-AT, Clone Turbo Tank, Grievous' Starfighter, etc) fall into play here, I don't know. All I DO know is that I missed out on the first editions of some of these, and the timing is right for me. Perhaps I'm not alone, as it appears the LEGO community is growing by leaps and bounds all the time these days.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by ncbarrett » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:55 am

vynsane wrote: I think they're reusing molds and thinking about reuse of pieces a lot more these days. In the heyday of LSW, when it single-handedly brought them back from the brink of bankruptcy, they invested a lot of money into new pieces which amounted to near one-offs (pieces only made for specific sets, etc) which was a bit gluttonous. Since then, the economy has forced LEGO to be more cognizant of cost versus profit. Where slight redesigns of sets only a couple years old (Slave I, AT-AT, Clone Turbo Tank, Grievous' Starfighter, etc) fall into play here, I don't know. All I DO know is that I missed out on the first editions of some of these, and the timing is right for me. Perhaps I'm not alone, as it appears the LEGO community is growing by leaps and bounds all the time these days.
I think the increase of stickers on LSW proves they are trying to save money, by not making special printed pieces.
Which of course increases value of the older printed sets.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by natelite » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:33 am

i agree TLC is not intentionally feeding the bubble but the net effect is that the increased pricing is feeding the bubble. i think they weren't trying to drive fans to other themes but more about how much they can make from the theme. the price increase was very targeted. it first began with the $10-20 battle pack sets. those sets are the easiest in terms of absorbing a price increase. they weren't trying to drive fans to other themes, if that was the aim, they would have started with the largest sets since those provided the worst value to collectors.

if you look at the pricing, you will notice a pattern of price increase in the most exclusive sets. relatively speaking of course. for eg, the hoth set was $25 vs $20 from similar piece count set of the previous season. then the slave 1 vs slave 1 from 4 years ago. same design, different minifigs. how about 6212 x-wing? same as the previous design...and the previous design even included the yoda hut and yoda mf.

and i stand by my point about no lack of LSW sets to purchase in any time of the year. just think about it. no parents buy 4-6 sets per season for any kids. unless they are the beckhams or pitt/jolies. with such a huge selection of sets per year, even if they release every 6 months, there's still plenty of "new" sets to choose from every time a family walk into TRU or target.

the mold is the biggest cost in the production. i don't know where you get the notion that mold is cheap. you need to plan on how many piece per stamp, and to make enough feed so the polymer is fed into the mold in a constant pressure so as not to have excess build up of flash and that all portion is filled up with minimal air pockets. if there is any gap in the forming of the piece, you need to redesign again to get proper shape etc. after you finished getting the shape you also need to test the integrity of the piece (i.e. to make sure it doesn't break/crack easily). it's more than you think it cost.

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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by ncbarrett » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:45 am

natelite wrote:
the mold is the biggest cost in the production. i don't know where you get the notion that mold is cheap. you need to plan on how many piece per stamp, and to make enough feed so the polymer is fed into the mold in a constant pressure so as not to have excess build up of flash and that all portion is filled up with minimal air pockets. if there is any gap in the forming of the piece, you need to redesign again to get proper shape etc. after you finished getting the shape you also need to test the integrity of the piece (i.e. to make sure it doesn't break/crack easily). it's more than you think it cost.
i worked in a production facility that made rubber components.
There was a lot of scrap due to air, misfeeds.
Assume plastic is the same since they are both carbon based polymers.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by vynsane » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:53 am

natelite wrote:i agree TLC is not intentionally feeding the bubble but the net effect is that the increased pricing is feeding the bubble. i think they weren't trying to drive fans to other themes but more about how much they can make from the theme. the price increase was very targeted. it first began with the $10-20 battle pack sets. those sets are the easiest in terms of absorbing a price increase. they weren't trying to drive fans to other themes, if that was the aim, they would have started with the largest sets since those provided the worst value to collectors.
It's probably a bit of both, really - it's a win/win for them. If someone decides the Slave I is too expensive for them this time around, but they're in the mood to buy LEGO, they might buy a cheaper set (possibly from a non-licensed theme) and LEGO makes a profit. If some rabid SW fan comes in after that person and pays full price for the new Slave I, LEGO makes a profit.
and i stand by my point about no lack of LSW sets to purchase in any time of the year. just think about it. no parents buy 4-6 sets per season for any kids. unless they are the beckhams or pitt/jolies. with such a huge selection of sets per year, even if they release every 6 months, there's still plenty of "new" sets to choose from every time a family walk into TRU or target.
I can only speak on personal experience here, but my wife's cousin has four kids - two girls, two boys, of whom the three eldest are into LEGO. The two boys have a TON of LSW each (the one girl into LEGO is more into Creator and City stuff). I wouldn't say they have every set from the last few waves, but a GREAT percentage of them. The older boy is strictly into SW but the other boy has a lot of the SP3 and Power Miner sets as well.
the mold is the biggest cost in the production. i don't know where you get the notion that mold is cheap. you need to plan on how many piece per stamp, and to make enough feed so the polymer is fed into the mold in a constant pressure so as not to have excess build up of flash and that all portion is filled up with minimal air pockets. if there is any gap in the forming of the piece, you need to redesign again to get proper shape etc. after you finished getting the shape you also need to test the integrity of the piece (i.e. to make sure it doesn't break/crack easily). it's more than you think it cost.
In the example above I'm not sure it's the mold itself that's the largest cost so much as maintaining quality control while using the mold, but I guess that's splitting hairs. Any time you create a new mold it costs a fair amount of money that (especially "IN THIS ECONOMY...") needs to be accounted for in profit ratio through reuse.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by Zithy » Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:00 pm

I think that if anything, LSW has the opportunity to bring in new buyers of other Lego sets from the pool of people who never bought Lego. There's plenty of non-Lego themes and sets out there to keep people busy. I haven't bought any Atlantis because I prefer Town/City themes. The Atlantis minifigs don't go with anything I have, so it doesn't interest me. Same for some of the other themes. But to say that the other themes suffer because I buy SW sets is to say that those same sets suffer because I buy Town/City sets.

Anyone who goes into a TRU or a Lego store with $100 to spend gets what they want. So if their choice is a SW set or sets, isn't that simply because they preferred that over a PoP set? Ahh, but you say that same person would have spent the $100 on another theme if SW were no longer made. At first that might sound true, but not always so. The SW fan could just as easily walk out with the Cnote still in his back pocket--there's no guarantee that another Lego set would capture his interest. Also, he just as easily might purchase two $50 sets, one SW and the other a non SW item. There's just simply more Star Wars fans out there than Farmers, Atlanteans or Pirates :)

It's been said that the Star Wars theme saved Lego from going bankrupt. Can't it also be said that the reason we have so many themes it because of the recent profits, most in part from Star Wars sets? Then why would someone cry about having too many sets, or that they think by having SW themes that they're being deprived of THEIR favorite theme? Wouldn't that be because they just can't buy every set that they want to get? That's just the way it is then. Buy what you want, what you can afford and just enjoy building, right?

Another factor is two-fold. On one hand, the SW sets are pricier due to the cost of the license, rights, royalties, etc. On the other, would they be at the current prices if people weren't buying them? Of course not. So, Lego is smart enough to price them at a point between those two figures. Too expensive? Either earn more money or stop buying items that you deem too expensive. Reminds me of people who complain about paying $3 for a gallon of gas while they're in line at Starbucks buying a $4 coffee drink.

I would think everyone should be happy that Lego makes money from their SW line. As long as they continue to do so, we can have a very nice variety of sets to buy - both Star Wars and non Star Wars. So it does have a good effect on other themes, it helps to give Lego the opportunity to expand or even take chances and actually make more sets and new themes for us. What's bad about that?

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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by slacker » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:24 am

natelite wrote: the mold is the biggest cost in the production. i don't know where you get the notion that mold is cheap. you need to plan on how many piece per stamp, and to make enough feed so the polymer is fed into the mold in a constant pressure so as not to have excess build up of flash and that all portion is filled up with minimal air pockets. if there is any gap in the forming of the piece, you need to redesign again to get proper shape etc. after you finished getting the shape you also need to test the integrity of the piece (i.e. to make sure it doesn't break/crack easily). it's more than you think it cost.
Let me ask you, How much do you think it would cost to make a mold for a 2x4 brick? Obviously Lego would make multi cavity tool to increase production time and the life cycle of the tool as they make billions of those pieces. If you look at some of the technic pieces they aren't the best of quality. Lots of sinkmarks. By now, you would think that Lego knows how to design a part and have molders that know what they are doing after decades of experience. There are software that will tell you if your part can be filled or not. But nothing beats experience with real molds. As I said previously, how many new parts does lego come out a year? I don't know that question since I just came out of the dark ages but it can't be that much per set.

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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by legogeek » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:20 pm

legitimatealex wrote: Probably 4 minifigure sets that are $20 now will reach $30 prices despite no discernible change in inflation... LEGO is more popular now than ever, their sales are increasing all the time and yet we seemingly get stuck with higher prices and lower quality. How is that even possible?
It is kind of stupid how we're paying much more than before and sets are smaller than ever. Shouldn't we get sets the same size if prices are increasing already? Or the other way around sets getting smaller set and price stays the same. But LEGO has to do it both ways to further maximize their big profits from this line.

Remember sets like the 2007 Grievous Fighter and AT-AT? They had around 230-240 pieces and retail about $20. We got pieces at roughly $0.08-$0.09 cents per piece which is even better than the golden piece ratio of $0.10 per piece. Sets today are like plo koon's starfighter with 170 pieces and retail about $25. Way above $0.10 per piece. :(

With price increase and smaller sets, we could at least get printed pieces. (virtually every set has them now)Stickers instead of printed pieces is maximizing their profits even more. Stickers are horrible. Hard to apply properly and it wears out later on.

LEGO is smart. They know they can continue to milk us fans despite our complaints. We all complain about the price hikes in Star Wars. But we still buy them all. ;)

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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by Zithy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:37 pm

Why can't gasoline be $1.25 per gallon again? Why does the McDonalds double cheeseburger only have one slice of cheese now?

When does cost and prices ever decrease? Just don't purchase what you believe to be unjustifiable.

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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by toystest » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:52 pm

Zithy wrote:Why can't gasoline be $1.25 per gallon again? Why does the McDonalds double cheeseburger only have one slice of cheese now?

When does cost and prices ever decrease? Just don't purchase what you believe to be unjustifiable.
I know it's not really relevant, but the double cheeseburger still has 2 slices of cheese, the McDouble only has one ;)

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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by legitimatealex » Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:32 am

So it sounds like we're all agreed here, buy war bonds.

Anyways someone mentioned the quality of the sets vs the increasing price and I thought that was an interesting point to focus on. The number of printed pieces seems to be decreasing the later on in the line we get. For example, in the Clone Trooper battle pack there are stickers for the Republic emblem whereas a year or two back, there are actual printed pieces with the Republic emblem on them. Can anyone explain this? I know that LEGO used to have printed pieces for pretty much EVERYTHING pre 2000 but some of the printed tiles and pieces that they have reduced to stickers are ones that they use in pretty much every Star Wars set.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by ncbarrett » Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:19 am

legitimatealex wrote:...The number of printed pieces seems to be decreasing the later on in the line we get. For example, in the Clone Trooper battle pack there are stickers for the Republic emblem whereas a year or two back, there are actual printed pieces with the Republic emblem on them. Can anyone explain this? I know that LEGO used to have printed pieces for pretty much EVERYTHING pre 2000 but some of the printed tiles and pieces that they have reduced to stickers are ones that they use in pretty much every Star Wars set.
Cost savings.
When the same piece can be used in several sets, with different stickers, you can run more of that piece at a time, thus saving the cost of that individual piece.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by legitimatealex » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:44 am

ncbarrett wrote:
legitimatealex wrote:...The number of printed pieces seems to be decreasing the later on in the line we get. For example, in the Clone Trooper battle pack there are stickers for the Republic emblem whereas a year or two back, there are actual printed pieces with the Republic emblem on them. Can anyone explain this? I know that LEGO used to have printed pieces for pretty much EVERYTHING pre 2000 but some of the printed tiles and pieces that they have reduced to stickers are ones that they use in pretty much every Star Wars set.
Cost savings.
When the same piece can be used in several sets, with different stickers, you can run more of that piece at a time, thus saving the cost of that individual piece.
That's exactly why I chose the Republic emblem though. It is very common, it exists in almost every set that is focused on Clone Troopers. The pieces are just round white flat tiles with printing and they used to be in pretty much every single Clone Wars set. The circular flat white tile isn't exactly a utility piece.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by ncbarrett » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:08 am

legitimatealex wrote:
ncbarrett wrote:
legitimatealex wrote:...The number of printed pieces seems to be decreasing the later on in the line we get. For example, in the Clone Trooper battle pack there are stickers for the Republic emblem whereas a year or two back, there are actual printed pieces with the Republic emblem on them. Can anyone explain this? I know that LEGO used to have printed pieces for pretty much EVERYTHING pre 2000 but some of the printed tiles and pieces that they have reduced to stickers are ones that they use in pretty much every Star Wars set.
Cost savings.
When the same piece can be used in several sets, with different stickers, you can run more of that piece at a time, thus saving the cost of that individual piece.
That's exactly why I chose the Republic emblem though. It is very common, it exists in almost every set that is focused on Clone Troopers. The pieces are just round white flat tiles with printing and they used to be in pretty much every single Clone Wars set. The circular flat white tile isn't exactly a utility piece.
But there are many sets that use that flat circular piece that are not star wars sets.
So they can make them in one run for all the different themes from star wars to power miners to racers.
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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by Zithy » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:11 pm

toystest wrote:
Zithy wrote:Why can't gasoline be $1.25 per gallon again? Why does the McDonalds double cheeseburger only have one slice of cheese now?

When does cost and prices ever decrease? Just don't purchase what you believe to be unjustifiable.
I know it's not really relevant, but the double cheeseburger still has 2 slices of cheese, the McDouble only has one ;)
Lol I couldn't remember what they did, other than to remove a slice of cheese from the value menu burger and rename it :)

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Re: Star Wars and its effect on other themes

Post by mrfootball » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:53 am

Star Wars brings tons of new buyers into the Lego line year after year. It also brings old buyers 'back' into the fold after years of not buying. Add to this, the Star Wars sets push Lego's design teams to come up with better designs. They have to compete with other markets they otherwise would'nt compete with and it forces them to get better.

As a Star Wars fan and a Lego fan who's first ever Lego kit was the Galaxy Explorer back when I was a kid in the late 1970's, I was more than thrilled to 'rediscover' Legos when my son started asking for them. We enjoyed building them so much that I've probably gone overboard now, having bought around 60 or so sets from past and present. Lego's great fun for kids of all ages! It's also a great family activity.

You could say Lego Star Wars was the gateway...we've since moved into other product lines...Lego Games, Lego Castles, Lego City, etc.

I think it's clear, Star Wars effect on Lego....it's fueled unprecedented interest in the Lego line overall and is one of the major reasons Lego has been so successful over the past decade with business booming during a depression.

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